9 mm versus .357 Sig

A reader was interested in a 9 mm/.357 Sig comparison after I discussed the 9 mm cartridge versus the newer .40 S&W. In the 9-to-40 comparison, we have a smaller, lighter bullet versus a slower, heavier one. The bigger, heavier bullets of the .40 S&W have already established a good reputation for fight-stopping performance. But a typical pistol will hold a few less of them than a comparable-sized 9 mm auto. I think that adequate capacity of more effective 40s renders the 9 mm’s advantage in both capacity and velocity a very moot point. Still, the 9 mm has some advantages in easier shooting and training, as well as lower cost and longer gun life.

To compare the 9 mm to the .357 Sig is an entirely different ball game. First used by the German Navy in 1904, the 9 mm Luger (or Parabellum, etc.) has a long service history and is probably the most widely used pistol cartridge in the world. The little round came into its own in the 70s when modern JHP ammo was developed. Capable of good velocities, particularly with lighter bullets, the 9 mm cartridge is made for dozens of pistol designs. Although made with typical 115-grain bullets for many years, the most commonly used 9 mm Luger bullet today weighs 124 grains. Heavier 147-grain JHPs are becoming more popular.

The .357 Sig is a recent cartridge that has one characteristic exactly like the 9 mm Luger—it uses the same 124- and 147-grain bullets. Despite the name, the actual bullet diameter is 9 mm (.355 inches). It differs in that it is uses a bottlenecked case developed from the .40 S&W. Among other advantages, this means the gun’s breech dimensions and magazines are the same as the .40’s. Building a gun is usually no more complicated than installing a .357 Sig barrel in a .40 S&W pistol. With greater case capacity of modern powders, the .357 Sig is a very hot number. I have heard reports of accelerated gun wear.

There is an enormous array of 124-grain ammo in 9 mm, including some +P and +P+ that is extra hot. The average velocity for all loads at this weight is about 1,100 fps. Now look at the average velocity of an admittedly smaller assortment of .357 Sig ammo using bullets of the same weight. It is approximately 1,350 fps. In other words the typical 125-grain JHP load travels 250 fps faster in a 357 Sig than in a 9 mm Luger. In the 147-grain bullets, the 9 mm drives bullets to about 1,000 fps, while the .357 Sig does about 1,225, some 125 fps faster. There is a clear speed advantage to the Sig, not at all surprising in view of the larger case capacity.

When you crunch the numbers through the formula that calculates kinetic energy, the 9 mm gets approximately 336 ft.-lbs. for 125s and 326 for 147-grain slugs. The .357 Sig is way ahead at 506 ft.-lbs. for 125 grainers and 490 for the 147-grain bullets. Inescapably, the .357 Sig is a much more powerful cartridge.

That does not make it a better cartridge. It recoils strongly, has lesser capacity in same-size guns and may be hard on guns. Using it skillfully takes practice and familiarity. These are pretty subjective matters, which prompts the observation that if you can handle the .357 Sig, it is an automatic pistol cartridge that wildly out-performs the 9 mm Luger and even equals the legendary .357 Mag.—when the latter is using 125-grain bullets.

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10 Responses to 9 mm versus .357 Sig

Jerry Bassett wrote:
December 05, 2013

While comparing the 9mm to the 40 S&W and the 357 Sig, how about throwing the 38 Super into the comparison mix? A comparison to all three would be very interesting, at least to me.

William J. Le Petomane wrote:
November 18, 2013

In all fairness to the 9mm round, the original (and still standard) loading for the 9mm is a 124 grain bullet at 1150fps from a 4 inch barrel. A decent +p loading will get you 400-450lbs/ft of energy compared to 500lbs/ft or so for the .357Sig. Obviously the .357Sig has more power, but suffers from less capacity and higher cost, just like the .40S&W. I guess you could say the same for the .44mag. To each his own.

Reloder wrote:
November 15, 2013

Just to add, modern technology can do a lot toward resolving the shortcomings of 357 Sig's magnum effects. As far as the gun getting beat up, a good compensator resolves that nicely. And to resolve muzzle flash, just mount a flashlight / laser so you won't have to aim line of sight, and night blindness won't happen. Earmuffs resolve noise on the range, and a few loud bangs once or twice in your life when its for real, are the least of your problems. Muzzle flash can also be resolved by using low flash powders, either handloaded of from factory. Ammo manufacturers are already on the ball and coming out with this, and can also do their part if they were to market a '357 Sig Lite' version, equaling or just slightly bettering a 9mm+P (remember Federal's 12 gauge Lite load? That was a successful idea, just do the same thing here). 357 Sig's best advantage is there's room to seat a heavier bullet than in a 9mm in that gun's platform, to take advantage of its extra powder capacity. And as Bigfoot says, a heavier bullet driven slightly faster is ideal. What more can you ask in this caliber? Point is, 357 Sig is versatile and still has room to grow and mature, where 9mm+P is maxed out in development. It may yet come out on top.

Rich wrote:
November 15, 2013

Those of us who remember a game of 'Cowboys and Indians' that may have gotten out of hand, know it's better to get hit with a small stone, than a big rock.

SKIP wrote:
November 14, 2013

After dark, make the first shot with .357 sig count because you'll be a lot more blind after it than with a 9MM .

BigFoot wrote:
November 14, 2013

Zac: Speer gives the formula for bullet energy as VELOCITY (fps) X VELOCITY (fps) X BULLET WEIGHT (grains) all divided by 450,400. As you can see, velocity gets squared while weight doesn't. This gives velocity a huge advantage over weight when determining foot pounds of energy. The problem is that rifle cartridges are probably better suited to using foot pounds of energy than handgun cartridges because they usually have velocities of over 2000 fps where 'shocking power' comes into play. Low velocity handgun cartridges are said to be better evaluated by measuring their MOMENTUM which is simply weight times velocity, both factors carrying equal importance. Now you can see how important bullet weight becomes and of course bullet weight benefits penetration which is required for handgun bullets to be at their very best. This explains why large and heavy bullets like the .40 and .45 are always so highly regarded for self-defense. And, if you can drive them a little extra fast, you can turn a highly effective round into a 'well-trained rhinoceros,' according to Jeff Cooper. Handgun hunters also favor weight over velocity when hunting big game because they require their bullets to go deep. In choosing your self-defense cartridge a large caliber will give you large holes due to its diameter (even more if it expands) and the heavy bullet weight analogous to a big bore assures deep penetration. Now just drive it as fast as possible and you will have your own well-trained rhinoceros.

Reloder wrote:
November 14, 2013

Zac, to answer your question its all about momentum a bullet carries with it as it builds acceleration in a barrel. A heavier bullet has more momentum that the powder charge has to overcome before peak pressure occurs. A lighter bullet has less momentum to overcome, and so it can achieve a higher muzzle velocity on exit. But without that extra momentum, it will have less penetration and expends all its energy faster, and may not even exit your opponent, which can be a good or bad thing. A heavier bullet exits the barrel a little slower because the powder charge could not quite get it there before peak pressure, but its own weight carries more momentum with it downrange, resulting in more penetration. Whether the extra momentum of a heavy bullet makes up for the lighter bullet’s velocity advantage in ultimate stopping power, is why shooters argue to no end on how a 357 Sig is better than a 9mm+P. Wiley’s point here is that the 357 Sig has more magnum stopping power to end a gunfight, but is it worth it for its effects on the gun and shooter. One solution is a compensator, which would tame slide momentum and resulting recoil. But more noise and muzzle flash to deal with are not to everyone’s liking, so even that isn’t perfect. And so most shooters have stayed with 9mm+P as the more reasonable compromise in this caliber, and the more experienced ones liking the 357 Sig. I’m glad to see both bullets are available, to better suit a shooter’s needs.

Brenboy wrote:
November 14, 2013

Neat reading all the comparative values... but even after 50 years I can't fathom actually buying a non wood and steel pistol that shoots either round! 45 is my addiction but high velocity is intriguing in a pistol platform.

BigFoot wrote:
November 13, 2013

Always fun to get out the ballistic tables and compare cartridges. Bottom line is the more powerful cartridges cost more to shoot, recoil more, and improve your chances of putting the bad guy down before he kills you. But maybe the cost and recoil factors are above your comfort zone? Handloading can lower the cost of shooting and the weight/size of your weapon plus choice of grips can mitigate recoil. A lot of ink has been posted about how ammunition has improved to the point that small bullets can expand and become big bullets. What is forgotten is that when small bullets expand their enlarged frontal area reduces their sectional density and thus their penetration and penetration is the number one criteria when choosing a self-defense bullet. Back when the FBI was still using the 9mm, they were smart enough to go with the heavier 147-grain bullet, take all available penetration, and let expansion be what is was. And when that didn't work out, they switched to the 10mm/40 S&W. For those that are recoil intolerant, a suggestion: For home use a full-size, full-weight, full-power weapon to maximize your chances of winning the fight. For carry, get yourself a lightweight and small .380/9mm and hope for the best. And don't get too wrapped up in magazine capacity. If your plan is to shoot the bad guy 10 times at 7 feet with a mouse gun before he goes down, don't you think he will be shooting you 10 times too? You would be better served to use less rounds, but more powerful rounds, in order to end the fight before you get too shot up. Yes, power is good if you can handle it. If not for increased power, we would still be shooting .38s instead of .357s; .44s instead of .44 Magnums; .45 Colts instead of .454 Casulls. And, yes, 9mms instead of .357 SIGS.

Zac wrote:
November 13, 2013

I have a question. Why is it that with the higher grain bullets the velocity and hitting power is lower then with a lower grain bullet? I always thought it would be the opposite.